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Buffalo, I'm finding (after searching other forums) that there are a lot of satisfied ATF DW-1 users. No automatic transmissions (A/T's, my shorthand) quitting because of it, at least through my searching. I get more confident in it every time I look. All of the descriptions point to it being a solid ATF choice so far. I can't remember where I found it, but I actually saw a guy with a small pickup truck happily using DW-1, and I don't think it was a Honda Ridgeline!

Viscosity numbers are a weird beast, because sometimes they do not describe how well a 'thin fluid' can act like a more viscous one turning corners in a control valve body or other area where one might desire more viscosity, but then it acts like a thin fluid when running through linear passages or inside a pump, thus reducing pumping losses and delivering the side benefits of better fuel economy and less heat generation. In short, it's not out of the realm of possibility that chemists & engineers can make an ATF act like a multigrade oil...not a great analogy, but it's the best I can think of. I knew this from a previous life in the lab, but it took 02Ody02 to remind me of that basic truth.

The internal ATF pump in our A/T's moves fluid to primarily three different major circuits as far as I can tell from the Helm schematic:
1.) The torque converter & its clutch control valving
2.) ATF cooling circuit (lines leading out of the A/T to the coolers and back to the sump)
3.) Fluid power circuits in the transmission casing.

The TC/TCC control valve & the cooling circuit are almost linked together because they "share pressure" in a balanced sense I don't quite understand. I came to this understanding by reading funtown89's informative posts. Anyways, for this discussion on filters we can treat the ATF cooler lines like a separate circuit coming out of the tranny's ATF pump. It moves a lot of fluid. So, on to filters.

The ATF strainer inside the sump of your A/T is a fairly coarse filter element that cannot be serviced by the user; it requires splitting the case to get to it. All of the fluid returning from the above three fluid circuits will return to the sump to pass through this sump strainer which is just prior to the A/T's internal ATF pump inlet. The majority of small particulates are supposed to pass right through this sump strainer to be held in suspension in the ATF until a drain/refill.

The OEM cartridge ATF filter (black cylinder-shape) on top of your A/T takes care of some of the fluid running through the fluid power circuits in the tranny case. I don't know if it is upstream of those solenoid screens that are the topic of the "Root Cause and Fix" thread. Anyways, after passing through these circuits, the fluid falls right back into the A/T's sump to go back through the A/T sump strainer and internal ATF pump again. It catches smaller stuff that passes through the sump strainer.

A Magnefine installed after the radiator in-tank cooler (those 3/8" hose nibs sticking out of the bottom of the radiator), and before your added additional ATF cooler will catch particulates moving through this separate cooling circuit from the ATF pump. By this time, fluid has passed through the rather coarse A/T sump strainer, the A/T's internal ATF pump, and to the cooling circuit which has your installed Magnefine, which should then also catch the smaller stuff. Those solenoid screens mentioned above are not part of this circuit.

Buffalo, best I can relate since it was explained to me by someone with real knowledge of the subject, is that a 78-deg C (172-deg F) tstat will begin to open only a few degrees earlier than the 82-deg C (180-deg) tstat. As far as I can tell, that rated temperature is when the tstat begins to open. Say, one engine has a 78C tstat, the other has an 82C tstat...the Ody with the 78C stat will start moving hot coolant to the radiator before the Ody with the 82C stat does. If both Ody drivers are using the same amount of fuel, they have near-identical heat exchange needs at the radiator after both of their respective tstats are fully open. Once both tstats are fully open, the coolant temp difference at the cooler bottom tank (outflow end) of the radiators ends up being far less than the difference in tstat opening temps, or none at all. This radiator bottom tank is where your radiator in-tank ATF cooler lives.

I am curious, where did you get the 113F measurement?

OF
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
I have an Ultra-Guage that is connected to the OBD2 port.
Good explanation on the flow of the ATF. Sorta reminds me of the old engine by-pass filters. :)
I will order a MagnaFine filter and install it to possibly help with the longevity of my AT in my 2003 Honda.
The Ultra-Guage would not read any values between 208F and 213F. It would jump from one to the other. It is probably what the Honda computer says what it is.
Thanks again for your interest,time and good advice.
Buffalo4
PS: UltraGauge OBDII Scan tool & Information Center
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Odyfamily asked:
"I am curious, where did you get the 113F measurement?"
Sorry, it should have said 213F and not 113F. My typing mistakes increase as I get older.
Ultra-Gauge is my tool. :) It even reads pending codes, actual codes and has the ability to 'reset' them. Doesn't read SRS codes (airbag codes), at least in my version.
Nice thing to own. I even enjoy such things as seeing the timing advance, intake temp,oil distance since changed, very accurate mileage, instant mpg, rpm and its alarm settings for many values.
Timing advance seems to be the greatest while going downhill with little or no throttle. fun things to watch if you are curious. Many choices. :)
Buffalo4
 
I've got the similar-operating ScanGauge. You're right, it's almost an enjoyable hobby, pulling up the different data and watching what it does in response to we drivers using that gas pedal. In looking at a schematic, I think our Odys use a thermistor to yield coolant temp to the PCM, and that computer comes up with a number...it truly is "what the computer says it is".

If I'm not running the AC in my 2003 with its 82-deg tstat on a fairly warm day, I see coolant temps of around 205-deg F. If it's really hot and forces me to use the AC, the fans are purring, and that airflow keeps it just below 200-deg F. I've swapped my ScanGauge to the wife's 2002 with a 78-deg tstat, and get very similar coolant temp results on equally hot days, differing by only a couple deg F. Kind of buried in the "data noise".

I'm rebuilding carburetors on a pair of 250 Ninjas right now. Kinda fun. Good Lord, cars in the 70's were simpler with carbs and basic electronic ignition or breaker points. No more sophisticated than the motorcycles I'm working on right now.

OF
 
We have made OdyFamily spend more time thinking about transmissions. Our work here is done.

So, Buffalo, what do you think of the UltraGauge? I need an OBDII scanner anyway. Would like to read live data (not on mpg, several of my cars already have trip/mpg computers). Not a bad price, although the website is deceptive: price after rebate, but without any mount, or shipping... Still, around $85 and a $9 purposefully difficult to get rebate. Not bad.
 
We have made OdyFamily spend more time thinking about transmissions. Our work here is done.
:cool:

BTW, that's a good price for anything that can give you all that user-selectable data. I use mine to help get all I can out of tank of gas.

Curiously enough, when the engine is cold, it won't do the 3-4 upshift until ~32mph. When the PCM says coolant is 157-deg F or greater, it allows that same shift at ~28mph. I once sat there, holding almost exactly 28mph for a couple blocks with it staying in 3rd gear, watching the ScanGauge coolant temp go to 152F....154F...155F....157F, and the moment it ticked over to 157F, it shifted.

These things are funs for us geeks, and we know hot women love geeks:

Image


That's me in the yellow dive mask & snorkel. The gal in the blue bikini top insisted I wear that gear to match her yellow bikini bottom. Gotta keep the womens happy.

OF
 
I just bought a gallon of Max-Life ATF for $16.97 at Wal-Mart. Hadn't seen it on the shelf for a while but one gallon just showed up.
 
Discussion starter · #28 · (Edited)
We have made OdyFamily spend more time thinking about transmissions. Our work here is done.

So, Buffalo, what do you think of the UltraGauge? I need an OBDII scanner anyway. Would like to read live data (not on mpg, several of my cars already have trip/mpg computers). Not a bad price, although the website is deceptive: price after rebate, but without any mount, or shipping... Still, around $85 and a $9 purposefully difficult to get rebate. Not bad.
I have had mine for over 3 yrs with no problems and I really like it. It has different gauge choices depending on the vehicle it is used on. On my UG version and my 2003 Ody, I do not get oil pressure, voltage, outside temp and some others I would like, but the Ody computer probably doesn't offer them to the Ultra-gauge. I believe you can find out which ones will display with your vehicle by looking into the site.
When I bought mine, the mounting apparatus was at no additional cost. I only use the suction cup window mount and it is great (quality suction cup and great flexible rod). I guess some states don't allow any gauges to be mounted to the windshield so check that out.
The $9 rebate is sort of a pain but you also learn about the device so it was worth it. I also discovered that my Ody odometer was reading 3% high ( 103 miles reported for 100miles traveled, better apparent mpg :) )
Be sure to dl'd the operating manual is it isn't shipped with the UG.
Buffalo4
 
I just bought a gallon of Max-Life ATF for $16.97 at Wal-Mart. Hadn't seen it on the shelf for a while but one gallon just showed up.
You found the 1-gallon jug? I haven't seen that in like, forever. What is the p/n on the label? The 1-quart bottle of Valvoline MaxLife is p/n VV324, but I can't recall the 1-gallon jug number.

When I bought the bulk cases of ATF-Z1 years ago at $3.60/quart, that was many years ago but still a smoking deal, even in "pre-Obama dollars". aaronm, in terms of today's "Obama-bucks", ~$4.25/qt is a really good deal.

OF
 
I have been using DW-1 since it came out in my 2004, which has the updated transmission, and have been impressed so far. I have probably towed around 10K miles with the van since I made the switch over and do the 3x drain and fill every 30K. I do have a tru-cool transmission and power steering cooler but no external filter as well as Air lifts installed. I have driven over 62K miles on the DW-1 so far and shifting does seem a little harder but I have not had any transmission slippage issues either and the fluid never looks, feels or smells burnt between the changes. On one of the trips last year that I towed, we traveled nearly 3k miles and went up and down the continental divide twice with a nearly 3K lb trailer and a GVW of nearly 10K lbs. The van went up the divide at 70-75mph without any problems and no sign of transmission slippage.

That being said I do plan on replacing the filter on the transmission as well as adding an external filter this year before traveling to Canada next year. I may even switch over to Amsoil but I think I am going to replace all the motor and transmission mounts and add electric brakes to the trailer first.

I am still on my first transmission and my Ody has 159K miles.
 
***snip*** and went up and down the continental divide twice with a nearly 3K lb trailer and a GVW of nearly 10K lbs. **snip**
How did you get over 2,500 lbs. worth of stuff into the cabin? I filled an 18-foot bass boat with tools and yard equipment, and this is heavy stuff in terms of mass per volume...and it still came out to "only" 1,500 lbs. on top of the dry weight of the boat & trailer (~2,200 lbs.) with empty tanks. Yeah, my total towed weight was a bit more than max GTWR as weighed on a drive-on pallet scale. The boat held way, way, way more stuff than the Odyssey's cabin. I folded the seats, carried no passengers, filled the van and remaining front passenger seat to the roof with household goods, and maybe got "only" about just over 1,000 lbs. of stuff in there. At just over 9,000 lbs. the vehicle was a complete and total pig. Stopping was scary with those teensy-weensy Odyssey brakes, and believe me, I was careful. 70+mph going west up some of those hills in Tennessee? Wasn't going to happen, even on premium fuel, unless I stayed in 3rd gear and let it scream its guts out. Was wishing for a 3/4-ton truck to do that 1,200-mile haul.

Just wondering what you were carrying in the cabin to take you to 10,000 lbs. ....building materials?

OF
 
The 10K lbs was with the trailer OF. We had 4 adults and two children in the van with all of our gear/clothes in the back and on top in a box. We weighed it at a local metal recycling place to make sure we where not over the day before we left.
 
Not to derail this thread any, but I thought I'd post an update on how the Sam's Club generic Dextron III with Lubeguard (black bottle) is doing in my transmission since it was mentioned up above.

One year and about 14K miles later (after doing 4X drain & refill), the fluid still looks and smells new with no change in the level. I should start doing drain & fills more often, since the fluid is so cheap (just over $2 per quart).

Why did I go with the cheapest fluid? Honestly, I couldn't stand the thought of using $8/quart fluid to do successive drain & fills. I have spent countless hours reading up on this topic (having read through more than a hundred or so pages of those two transmission mega-threads on the Acura forum, eek), and after talking to my mechanic friend who has worked at a number of independent auto repair shops, he suggested using the Dex III with the Lubeguard (apparently quite a lot of shops secretly do this so they can stock one basic ATF that they buy in bulk and then use whatever additive is needed for the car type).
 
tesla...

When you say "feel the TCC lockup or engage while at idle RPM", does that feel like the car wants to go ever so lightly, like a slight surge at a red light?

If so, my 01 has that issue lately on its 20k rebuilt. Just did a 1x with the Castrol IMV, will do another in a few weeks, luckily no other symptoms.
 
***snip** and after talking to my mechanic friend who has worked at a number of independent auto repair shops, he suggested using the Dex III with the Lubeguard (apparently quite a lot of shops secretly do this so they can stock one basic ATF that they buy in bulk and then use whatever additive is needed for the car type).
I've heard of this and read a couple forums years ago where some of these tranny mechs use Dexron III and Lubegard Platinum to cover several types of ATF fills...and they have remarkably few callbacks. Makes me wonder what on earth they put in that bottle.

redmondjp, you're definitely not derailing the thread. It's all about alternatives, wise choices, and anything some of us beleaguered Gen 2 five-speed owners can do to make our A/T's last and last.

I can say that the next time I buy any vehicle in the future, I'll be pretty d@mned far ahead of the game regarding ATF choice and installing another cooler. I can't say I've ever owned an auto tranny car except for my old StingRay where I didn't install an ATF cooler and pay attention to ATF changes...but the Odyssey ATF-Z1 disaster has really made me take notice with our current vans.

Wish I wasn't so paranoid about our A/T's turning into grenades.

OF
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
Yep, it is amazing at how so many 'Honda experts' in this forum pushed Z-1. They pushed things such as 'Honda built it so they know what's best' and other parroting crap when they actually had no knowledge of what was better or worse and/or why. Same stuff happened in the CRV forum, esp 'Tampa Jim' type people.
Are there any real 'factual' tests being done? Does Honda really need their own ATF in their ATs for best performance and longevity?
Does the additive pkg that LubeGuard contains make up for the difference in Dextron III and plain DW-1, or perhaps, even exceed the performance of the DW-1 package?
When I finish my DW-1 supply, I will most likely use something cheaper, Lubeguard and hopefully do my AT a favor.
Buffalo4
 
I have no idea what TampaJim and others posted, but that seems harsh Buffalo. As a rule, the mfr does know more. Frankly, for someone to speak with authority requires expert knowledge in transmission design, fluids and knowledge of the fluid composition as well as alternate fluid and additive compositions. Even those who seem knowledgeable may not be.

Seems to me the trans problems a function of design, rather than fluid - but I am not sure either can be considered in isolation. I have done some manufacturing, and failure is never as easy to isolate as folks try to make it. Combinations of circumstances are usually involved. No doubt there are some with 200k using Z-1. And those who have had failures despite coolers, etc.
 
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