Excellent write up. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. Way to represent Cincy!

 

Thanks.

BTW - If anyone near Cincy needs the pulley tool, let me know. I'll let you use it for a deposit and a nominal "rental" fee.

 

This is most helpful - thanks. Yes, there would not be much info on replacing these seals - now we do.

 

I wish I'd known about your improvised solution years ago. I'm another one who thought, "Man, can't do it. Just finish the job, put it back together..."

Using PVC bushings is sheer genius. Thank you mrstop!

OF

 

Thanks for posting this MrStop. I also found another method:

the guy used the old TB and screwed it to a piece of wood. If you have a helper, the wood doesn't have to be that long/held against the rafters.

When the time comes, I have a strap wrench where the strap is removable and I discovered that an old acura TB i have lying around fits perfectly. So I might try that first IF i decide to do the seals lol.

 

I also found another method...the guy used the old TB and screwed it to a piece of wood. If you have a helper, the wood doesn't have to be that long/held against the rafters.

When the time comes, I have a strap wrench where the strap is removable and I discovered that an old acura TB i have lying around fits perfectly. So I might try that first IF i decide to do the seals lol.

Have you done this yet? Would love to see a pic. I found one of our old Odyssey timing belts while doing a little garage cleanup, so that and a strap wrench sound like a good matchup.

OF

 

Thanks mrstop!

Some questions for you and other experienced members:

1. Are the cam pulleys to be taken out when they are at TDC?

2. How do we ensure that the cams don't rotate and lose TDC when the pulleys/seals are being taken off/installed?

3. Does each full rotation of the cam pulleys (TDC to TDC) bring it back to TDC, or are there specific number of rotations required?

4. If there is indeed such a thing as cams losing TDC alignment (as in one full cam rotation is not enough to get it back at TDC), how do we get the cam back at TDC?

5. As long as the crank is fixed and does not move, does it matter if the cam is rotated clockwise or counter-clockwise?

6. Using PVC bushings is smart! Do you have the sizes handy?

I am assuming that as long as the crank is fixed, there is no risk of damage if the cams move inadvertently. Is that assumption correct?


Thanks again for sharing.

 

You're welcome. See my comments below. Note they are based on my memory and experience and all disclaimers apply (i.e. I'm not responsible for any damage).

Thanks mrstop!

Some questions for you and other experienced members:

1. Are the cam pulleys to be taken out when they are at TDC?

Yes, set the cam pulleys to TDC.

2. How do we ensure that the cams don't rotate and lose TDC when the pulleys/seals are being taken off/installed?

Be very careful. The front cam is pretty stable at TDC. However, the rear is balancing on what seems like a pin. My rear one did move a couple of times. When it does, it springs quick. However, I realigned and no damage was done. This mainly happened before I had the correct tool. I didn't have any problems that I can remember removing/installing the pulley

3. Does each full rotation of the cam pulleys (TDC to TDC) bring it back to TDC, or are there specific number of rotations required?

If the rear does spring, it's only a small rotation (IIRC). Maybe 1/2 to 3/4 rotation was all. You'll be able to feel when you get to TDC. If you get too far, it won't want to move (and don't force it!).

4. If there is indeed such a thing as cams losing TDC alignment (as in one full cam rotation is not enough to get it back at TDC), how do we get the cam back at TDC?

Just align the marks back up if it moves once the pulleys are back on (see above)

5. As long as the crank is fixed and does not move, does it matter if the cam is rotated clockwise or counter-clockwise?

I don't think so. Just don't go to the point where you have to "force" it. That is bad.

6. Using PVC bushings is smart! Do you have the sizes handy?

From my post "I found that a 1-1/2" x 1" bushing and a 2" x 1-1/4" bushing worked well."

I am assuming that as long as the crank is fixed, there is no risk of damage if the cams move inadvertently. Is that assumption correct?

I can't say that there is no risk. As I mentioned the rear one moved. And when it moved, it springs quickly and makes a bang. I reset the position and the engine has been running fine. It is possible something could have happened, but without removing the head and inspecting I can't tell for sure. Unfortunately I couldn't find a way to avoid 100%. I wish there was an alignment pin in the camshafts. IIRC, my old Integra had one.

Thanks again for sharing.

 

Thanks again mrstop!

I read your reply, but I have to read it a couple of more times to make sure I understand it.

Meanwhile, I gave it some thought, and I think that even though the crank is locked, it is still locked at TDC with the pistons in certain cylinders at certain positions (such that they don't interfere with the valves at TDC). Given this, there is only a certain amount of wiggle room (max degree/number of rotations) that a cam has, before it truly goes out of alignment. What that margin is would be good to understand.

I researched cam locking tools a bit, and most lock the cam sprockets in place for a TB replacement. While helpful for a TB replacement, these won't work for a cam seal replacement, as the cam sprockets need to come off for the seal replacement. If only the cam shaft itself could be locked in place somehow even with the pulley off.

One of the only two options that I have seen involves taking the valve cover off and locking the camshaft from inside on flat surfaces of the camshaft, although not all models may have these flat surfaces on the camshaft, plus getting in there is tedious work!

The other option involves sync-locking the two camshafts together by a "bridge" clamp that is attached using the cam pulley bolts. But there are transient at-risk moments in the process of using those (taking the belt, pulley, seals off/on)

 

"mrstop: This mainly happened before I had the correct tool":

Can you share the correct tool(s) that you now have?

 

@mrstop: Did you have the spark plugs in or out when the Cam slipped?

 

I think so. However, it won't make a difference in holding the cam back. It definitely makes a difference when you are turning the crank though. I removed the plugs after I was done with the seals, water pump and timing belt. I turned it over by hand using the crank pulley several times to make sure that everything was aligned and not binding.

Now stop thinking and start working! I totally think you will be fine. Just approach it with patience!

 

I am waiting for the holidays! Meanwhile I am going over all DIY threads, videos, etc. to understand the process, tricks, tools, risks, remediation options if a risk was to play out, etc.; and waiting for delivery on a few tools.

Although this will be first TB job, I have been over the TB aspect so many times that it almost feels that I have already done it once. It's just the crank/cam seals process that I need to understand a bit better.

My van has "only" 83K miles on it, but it's been 8+ years on the road, albeit not in severe climate conditions! Absolutely no engine oil loss (except one episode a few years back where I went into an extended OCI). So I am thinking, the seals might actually be fine, and if so, I MAY be better off leaving them as is! I will make that assessment based on: 1. The condition of the seals, and 2. How much trouble I think the entire work is if I had to do it again later just for the seals!

Thanks again for your help!

 

I'm just hassling you! I do the same thing. The general advice that I have read on the Honda V6 is that if the seals look good then leave them alone. I haven't heard or seen too much issue with the front engine seals. I was having some oil leaks from mostly the rear main seal. Also the valve cover and one of the rear cam holders was leaking a bit too. So that is what drove me to finally do it. Plus I have about twice the miles.

You may want to consider replacing the valve cover gaskets. Mine were totally hard and brittle. You could adjust the valves and clean the EGR while you are in there. It will also give you a good assessment of your engine. As you can tell from my pics I have some carbon buildup happening. Most of the miles were put on the van early in it's life. Now my wife is driving it about a mile or two at a time so it never gets completely up to temp. If you are in a similar position, I would recommend switching out to high mileage synthetic. I did so two oil changes ago and it appears that the carbon is starting to dissolve a bit.

 

Thanks for the post. I am replacing water pump ( what a pain in the ass! I hear such great things about Honda engineering, but they sure didn’t make this easy) and got seals with my kit. I was considering replacing but after reading your post, they would have to be gushing oil for me to get into that.

I'm just hassling you! I do the same thing. The general advice that I have read on the Honda V6 is that if the seals look good then leave them alone. I haven't heard or seen too much issue with the front engine seals. I was having some oil leaks from mostly the rear main seal. Also the valve cover and one of the rear cam holders was leaking a bit too. So that is what drove me to finally do it. Plus I have about twice the miles.

You may want to consider replacing the valve cover gaskets. Mine were totally hard and brittle. You could adjust the valves and clean the EGR while you are in there. It will also give you a good assessment of your engine. As you can tell from my pics I have some carbon buildup happening. Most of the miles were put on the van early in it's life. Now my wife is driving it about a mile or two at a time so it never gets completely up to temp. If you are in a similar position, I would recommend switching out to high mileage synthetic. I did so two oil changes ago and it appears that the carbon is starting to dissolve a bit.

 

Thanks for these tips. I just completed this service on my 2008 with 95k while doing all of the major services.

In hindsight I would probably let these seals go to the 2nd timing belt unless they were know to be leaking.

The condition of the inner lip and oil grooves in the seal was near new.

Anyway, I was "there" so I went ahead with it.

 

Thanks for these tips. I just completed this service on my 2008 with 95k while doing all of the major services. In hindsight I would probably let these seals go to the 2nd timing belt unless they were know to be leaking. The condition of the inner lip and oil grooves in the seal was near new. Anyway, I was "there" so I went ahead with it.

I'm glad to hear it was helpful.

 

None of the seals on my van were leaking, so I decided to leave them alone!

Thanks again for the insights and pointers...everything went smoothly!

 

None of the seals on my van were leaking, so I decided to leave them alone! Thanks again for the insights and pointers...everything went smoothly!

Good to hear! Congratulations on having the fortitude to not scratch the itch!

 

Hi mrstop,

My 2006 Honda Odyssey has 78400 miles on it. Do you recommend me to replace TB, water pump, tensioner, idler pulley, tensioner pulley, serpentine belt? Also, should I leave the camshaft and crankshaft seals as is if they are not leaking?

Thank you for your advise.

 

I'm far from a certified mechanic, so take my advise with the price your paying... I'm not sure of the service interval of the 2006, but when you do change, TB, water pump, tensioner, idler pulley, tensioner pulley, serpentine belt are all of the right parts to replace. They are relatively cheap to do them proactively as labor is the hardest part. I would stick to OEM or OEM manufacturer parts (e.g. Aisin) for everything except the serpentine. I bought a "gates" brand water pump that failed early and caused me to have to go back in before service was do.

General wisdom is to leave the seals alone unless leaking. Mine were still dry after 175K miles or so before I replaced.

 

mrstop, are you sure it was "Gates" casted onto the pump? Not second-guessing you at all, but I don't think they build any cast or machined items...they're primarily a rubber and synthetic rubber products company. Was it a "Gates" timing belt kit? Now that seems more in line with having an off-brand not-so-good water pump find itself into the woodpile.

Gates, to my knowledge, currently makes Honda's timing belts for the American market. The last OEM (from Bernardiparts.com) timing belt I replaced had the Honda trademarked nomenclature on it, and the Gates oval trademark as well. I replaced a Gates-Honda branded timing belt that had over 170,000 miles on it, and it looked pretty good for having been driven so far past scheduled replacement (it was a used car; I didn't drive it like that).

Just want JCL12 to understand that when he gets a Honda timing belt in Honda packaging, and the belt says "Honda" and "Gates" on it, that he can rest assured that it is a solidly constructed timing belt, perhaps one of the best out there.

I'm 100% in agreement with mrstop, as are most forum members...replace the rotating items (idlers and tensioners, both TB and serpentine) and the water pump while you're in there, and make sure they are Honda OEM or labelled "Aisin". BTW, "Koyo" brand is an OEM supplier of tensioners and idlers to many Japanese auto manufacturers, so if you see that brand name on the idler or tensioner pulley(s), it's a great & durable brand.

As well, replace the serpentine and power steering belts as mrstop mentions...you're already there after taking off the T-belt covers & side motor mount, so his proactive stance is an excellent idea. Nothing like deciding, "Nawww, that power steering belt still looks good"....and then a week later it starts squealing

Note mrstop's other items: ATF cooler and Magnefine....and 185,000 miles on his tranny. (Man, I sure miss my 2001 EX).

OF

 

You are correct. The "Gates" pump was part of a kit. I have no problem with Gates belts and use them. I'm sure the pump was sourced by Gates from some third party manufacturer. I took a little gamble on it assuming that they had some in-house engineering and QC, but was disappointed. May it was a fluke, but the next time I used the Aisin kit which included all of the parts from the OEM suppliers: Amazon.com: Aisin TKH-001 Engine Timing Belt Kit with Water Pump: Automotive

Thanks for the call-out on the other items. The van is still running strong with just minor things from time-to-time. I just installed my third battery in about 15 years. Also, one of the coil packs went bad about a month ago. But these were pretty quick and inexpensive fixes. I attribute a lot of the trans life to the cooler, filter and semi-frequent trans fluid changes.

 

One some other thread, the discussion is about the Honda recommendation for replacing the TB at 7 years or 105000 miles whichever comes first. This recommendation is not in the owner's manual so it is really frustrating to a lot of people. It also adds unexpected cost to maintain the car. All the low-mileage car owners are not going to be happy about this 7 years replacement interval.